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When you were younger, I’m sure you had an encounter with the game called “telephone.” You know, that game where one person comes up with a story, tells it to their neighbor, who tells it to their neighbor, etc. etc.? At the end of the game, the first person and the last person compare stories, and 100% of the time, they are drastically different. Interestingly enough, the golf world has been playing a big game of telephone over the past few years, and I want to tell you about it.
The topic is called “Stack and Tilt,” and unfortunately, from the first release of the swing concept in 2009 via the published book, the golfing world has been playing one big massive game of Telephone with it.
In this post, I want to weed out some of the misconceptions, share with you how Stack and Tilt wasn’t as big of a failure as many think, and finally, how it can help YOUR game.
But before we get into the nitty gritty details, we need to first get a better idea of how the system came about, and who created it.
Meet Andy and Mike
Andy Plummer and Michael Bennett are nothing like the Butch Harmons and Sean Foleys of the world. Nevertheless, they have been named Golf Digest top 100 instructors, and have led several PGA Tour players like Aaron Baddeley and Mike Weir to breakthrough victories.
I’m not going to try and convince you how amazing Aaron Baddeley and Mike Weir are, because they certainly aren’t competing on the level of Jason Day, Jordan Spieth, Rickie Fowler, and the other superstars we see every Sunday evening marching down the 18th hole in contention for a PGA Tour victory.
But there is something you should know about these two instructors…
They are systematic, and bring some depth to their instruction. Thanks to work with legendary teacher Mac O’Grady, as well as intensive study of the Golfing Machine (oh yeah, that book that Bryson DeChambeau has made famous?), the Stack and Tilt System isn’t far from what many of the players on tour are doing today, despite what everybody claims.
So What is Stack and Tilt?
In short, Stack and Tilt is comprised of 3 core fundamentals, followed by 6 swing positions that make up the “basic form” of the model.
3 Fundamentals
The first thing you need to understand about Stack and Tilt are the three fundamentals underlying the entire system.
Unlike most golf instruction that focuses on grip, stance, alignment, and posture, Andy and Mike take a slightly different approach. They claim that the three fundamentals of golf are as follows:
- Hit the ground in the same place every time (relative to your setup)
- Have enough power to play the course
- Match the clubface to swing path to control shot direction and curvature (or in other words, understand ball flight laws)
The “Basic Form”
In addition to these three fundamentals, Andy and Mike lay out 6 primary positions that a golfer must achieve to fit the “basic form” of Stack and Tilt.
- Weight forward (55/45 for irons, 60/40 for driver and woods)
- Left shoulder down as you turn back
- Hands in on backswing (the opposite of what Jim Furyk does on his takeaway)
- Back leg straight at the top of the swing (look at Ben Hogan at the top of his swing)
- Arms straight post impact
- Butt under torso at finish
Completely Lost?
You should be.
I included the fundamentals and basic form of Stack and Tilt to give you a broad overview of the topic. By no means is this a comprehensive explanation of Stack and Tilt (If you are interested in a more comprehensive look at the different positions, I suggest reading the book, or if you’re lazy, reading this article).
What I really want to get across is that Andy and Mike have crafted a system in which you can fully conform to, or simply take individual parts that work for you.
In the book, Andy and Mike start out by saying: “There are two ways to use the Stack and Tilt Swing and this book. First, you can learn how and why all the pieces work and start to develop an effective swing from the ground up. That’s the first part of the book. Or you can add pieces to your current technique, based on what will make the biggest difference to the flight of the ball. That’s the second part of the book. Both approaches will move you toward the same goal: developing a sound, repeatable golf swing.”
Despite popular belief, I don’t think that these guys were trying to make everyone look exactly like the Stack and Tilt model, Charlie Wi:
Instead, I think they were two guys who had a keen understanding of the basic truths of a golf swing, and put a fancy label on it.
In light of this, I want to take you through some of the biggest misconceptions of the Stack and Tilt Swing.
Stack and Tilt Myths
#1: Stack and Tilt is a Reverse Pivot
I might say that this entirely depends on how you define “reverse pivot.” In most golf communities, a reverse pivot is indicated by the straightening of the back leg and leaning forward at the top of the swing.
Sure, this may be how the reverse pivot is defined, but what is WRONG about the reverse pivot?
Well, the problem with the reverse pivot isn’t the fact that the golfer is leaning forward at the top of the swing, but rather the effect that it has during the downswing. Most golfers who have a reverse pivot fail to move their weight forward during the downswing, which causes an over the top, arms-only motion when attacking the golf ball.
So by definition, Stack and Tilt is a reverse pivot.
But, in Stack and Tilt, the goal is to continually shift the weight forward during the downswing.
Even though the spine points away from the target during the downswing, this is just a result of proper forward weight shift.
If you don’t believe me, give it a try right now:
Stand up, and make a backswing with the weight staying 55% on the front foot. Notice how your spine is tilted towards the target.
Now, in slow-motion, make a downswing, ensuring that your weight is traveling forward.
You will see that in order for your shoulders to stay centered over the ball, and set up for a solid strike, your spine naturally tilts away from the target.
This isn’t a bad thing, as long as the spine is tilting away as a result of a forward weight shift, NOT a backward weight shift (where you start with your weight forward, and end with it backward).
#2: Your Weight favors your front foot at the top of the backswing
I know, this is shocking. It was shocking to me when I first realized it.
Although the Stack and Tilt instructors tell you to keep your weight 55/45 throughout the backswing, you are actually transferring weight to your back foot. They tell you this because our mind plays tricks on us.
How do I know this?
Well, the guys responsible for the 5SK system did some testing of foot pressure with a couple different golfers to see how the weight is distributed through the swing.
It just so happens that Grant Waite, the golfer you see in the video below, is an all out Stack and Tilt player. Look at the weight distribution at the top of his backswing:
In the video, you can see that even a fully conformed Stack and Tilt player has 65% of his weight on the back foot at the top of the swing/in transition.
So what causes this?
From my understanding, this weight distribution is a result of the mass of the club being moved toward your back foot during the backswing.
I’m not all that interested in getting technical with this concept, but you should understand that Stack and Tilt is NOT actually teaching you to keep your weight forward 100% of the time, even though it appears and feels that way.
So that argument that “If a baseball pitcher moves his weight from his back foot forward, then why shouldn’t a golfer?” is no longer valid
#3: You have to fully convert to Stack and Tilt for it to be effective
Although this is #3 on the list, I’d argue that it is a large reason for criticisms of Stack and Tilt.
The truth is, you don’t have to look like Grant Waite or Charlie Wi to benefit from the Stack and Tilt swing philosophy.
Many of the Stack and Tilt teachings are simple imperatives that have worked over the years, all of which can be applied in pieces.
If you don’t want to completely straighten your back leg, but want to get your weight more forward at address, then go for it! I have done this with my own swing, and have seen great success accordingly. Of course, my basic setup and motion doesn’t look all that different, but by putting 55% of my weight forward at address, I have learned to keep the weight moving forward throughout the swing a lot more effectively than I had in the past.
If something about the Stack and Tilt philosophy doesn’t work for you, then don’t worry about it! I suggest reading the book, finding the components that DO work, and applying them to your swing. If you want to fully convert, that is fine as well, but be sure to do periodic checks on video to make sure that you are progressing in the right direction.
#4: You can’t hit it far with a Stack and Tilt Swing
This entirely depends on the level of the player.
If Jason Day or Rickie Fowler converted to Stack and Tilt, YES, they would probably lose some distance.
But these guys are pros for a reason. They have fairly efficient swings already.
A large group of amateurs don’t, which is the reason for bringing this myth to the table.
Although there are certainly exceptions, I will argue that most amateurs would gain distance from a proper application of Stack and Tilt principles, for the sole reason that they would learn to compress the ball better and learn how to sequence the golf swing more efficiently.
#5: You can’t hit the driver with Stack and Tilt
Many golfers falsely believe that by using Stack and Tilt principles with the driver, they will come in too steep and put ugly sky marks on their club.
Since the driver stance is wider than any other club, you must position a slightly larger amount of weight on the front foot at address (60/40 rather than 55/45). That is the only change.
What you must understand is that when the weight continually moves forward, there is no chance that the driver can get steep, and still make solid contact with the ball. This is where the “tuck the butt” principle comes into play. As you tuck the butt immediately before impact, you are essentially shallowing out the club. On top of that, the length of the driver helps this process as well.
#6: Stack and Tilt is Bogus
I had to include this because I’ve read this on a golf forum before.
Read the book, and THEN criticize. Enough said.
#7: Nobody on Tour uses Stack and Tilt Principles
Although some players like Aaron Baddeley, Charlie Wi, Grant Waite, and Mike Weir have distinct Stack and Tilt swings, there are plenty of other tour pros who embody some of the underlying principles of the swing philosophy.
Several of Sean Foley’s students such as Justin Rose and Sean O’Hair show signs of Stack and Tilt in there swing.
Sure, they aren’t 100% converted, but remember what I said in point #3?
How Stack and Tilt can help your game
Although we covered some of the misconceptions of Stack and Tilt, and briefly covered some of the ways to apply it to your own game, you might be wondering if it is right for you? How do you know?
Here’s my answer:
You’ll never know until you try.
That doesn’t mean you have to go all out and try everything that Stack and Tilt represents. As I mentioned earlier, it could be as simple as setting up with more weight forward at address, and focusing on keeping your shoulders over the ball at all times (I focus on keeping my head still throughout the swing to accomplish this).
If that doesn’t work, you might go broader and just focus on moving the weight forward more on the downswing.
Whatever it is that you try, just know that it will take a few range sessions to get comfortable doing it. Also, make sure you are using video analysis to ensure you are hitting the right positions and making forward progress. There is nothing worse than trying to implement something new and getting bad results simply because you implemented it the wrong way.
I hope that by now you have a better understanding of the Stack and Tilt framework. If you are thinking about trying part or all of it out, I highly recommend buying and reading the book. It has tons of pictures, and even descriptions of what certain positions feel to various tour pros using Stack and Tilt.
If you have any questions, feel free to drop a comment below!
Taking the club more inside as Plummer and Bennett advise, accentuates a more in to out swing which I have and struggle with. Pushes are a big result when I use the Stack and Tilt.
Anthony — I totally agree with you, I found myself hitting a lot of pushes when I tried the full Stack and Tilt method. Like I said in the post, I think Plummer and Bennett have some interesting ideas that can be highly impactful for many golfers’ games, but going 100% Stack and Tilt is not for everyone.
Zack I took a fail of a ladder and dislocated and broke my right hip. I used to have conventional golf swing but now find it hard to load my right side or get off my right side .I am searching for a swing to play the game I love. I can hit the ball solid but distance and height have suffered greatly. I`m 6`5 265 lbs and am 60 years old
Bryan–There are a lot of possible movements that you can use to produce a powerful swing even with physical limitations. I have attempted to describe those movements in my instructional series so that a golfer can build their swing to accommodate any sort of limitation. You might find the power accumulators post helpful!
Very interesting article and have already
ordered via Amazon the Golfing Machine .
If Ben Hogan , who in my opinion was the
greatest ball striker and would have won a load more majors had it not been for his terrible accident , used a method very
similar to S& T they why is the golfing world of instructors teaching us methods that you require you to be a contortionist.
I live in the UK and like us all cannot play golf at the moment . I am a golf nut , just wish I had started when I was very young
So I got hold of some plastic golf balls
and tried out this S&T method . Very , Very slowly to begin with . I also practiced the moves in front of and side view to a large mirror . I find this system so easy to understand and the results from hitting
plastic golf balls in are unbelievable. No hitting ground fat . I cannot wait to hit some proper golf balls
Glad it is helping your game! I think S&T gets a bad stigma, but there are many elements of it that are highly beneficial to a golf game. Many golfers think that they need to choose either swing A or swing B, but I think there is something to learn from each unique swing philosophy.
This past winter I was using a speed sensor indoors and noticed I did better when I kept my head still and the way to accomplish that was to start out the swing with weight on my front foot. Then I ran across a video by Tom Saguto and was introduced to Stack and tilt. He teaches to have ball placement relative to front foot the same for all clubs. I have found in the past to have best luck with my irons to have the ball farther back in my stance. But I’ve tried his suggestion. Sometimes very good iron ball strikes but then I start hitting behind the ball. Maybe I’m swaying bsck without knowing it. Not sure yet; but Im committed to this method. This method seems to have some good basic repeatable fundamentals.
I’ve been giving this a go recently. I think it makes. you more accurate. But I’m struggling with the driver. The ball goes too high and too short. Probably doing it wrong. But it’s a struggle.
Interesting to note that critics of S&T are generally other golf coaches, who make their livings teaching us the swing we never master. S&T is very simple and easy to use. More power would be nice but being on a fairway and green is nicer. I think if people tried it and didn’t listen to the criticisms of golf coaches, there’d probably be a far larger number of S&T players – as their ball striking would be far better.
I,too am hitting some plastic golf balls to try some of the s&t fundamentals. I have been struggling with getting my weight forward early enough in the down swing. I am impressed this far with the systems ability to get me thru the ball and to a nice nightfall finish. This full finish is something that I have struggled to implement for a very long time. The s&t makes it automatic. A big plus in my book.
I am dying to find a S&T instructor in the Portland, OR area, can you recommend one?
I have a bad back which only allows me to play about 12 holes before It starts to really effect my golf swing! Will the stack and. Tilt help reduce back pain?
I cannot definitively confirm that this swing methodology will reduce back pain, but it is a very efficient swing and has less moving parts than a conventional swing, and thus, may help back pain for that reason.
Tony–I’m not familiar with instructors in that area. I found the book itself to be extremely helpful for teaching the swing, but totally understand that having someone to watch can be a plus.
It is definitely a simpler golf swing, and as mentioned in the post, I believe it gets too much criticism. That said, on the tour level, there are valid arguments against it. I personally have used concepts from this swing in my own, but have never fully converted over as I achieve more power and shot-making ability with a conventional swing. For example, I have found it very difficult to hit fades with this golf swing, which is a huge dealbreaker for me. That said, I would reiterate that many of the concepts of S&T can be extremely helpful to a lot of players.
Yes, this method is certainly repeatable and consistent! For the topic of a steady head, I would also check out my post on the two-lever model. It digs into this topic a lot deeper and connects some of the dots that S&T might not.
There is no. evidence that Stack and tilt helps a golfer hit the ball farther or straighter.
It may do this but there is no systematic evidence. This is unfortunate but all golf. swing. theories suffer from this same. deficit.
I am a 20 handicap and tried the S&T for the first time today and noticed a huge improvement in ball striking ability and consistency. I have a chronic lower back issues and I could not normally get through a bucket of balls at the range due to pain. I immediately noticed that my back was not at all fatigued or sore using this method. I think there are less moving parts in this system and will be adopting this in my game for the near future!
57yrs old and essentially “lost” my golf swing 4-5 months ago. Started to watch some YT stuff and ran across Saguto Golf. Previously …. I kept going to the range “searching” for that right swing that I used to have. No success whatsoever. Very frustrating. My issues were lack of weight transfer and the releasing of the hands through contact.
Started to experiment with S&T. Keeping the weight over the front leg kept my swing more centered over the ball. No need to thing about a weight shift initially. I’ve always had a flat swing plane …. so the 1 plane swing was easy. I am typically the in to out swinger.
So took it to the course and it worked. Driver was the best. High draws, although a little spinny due to the right to left spin. Irons are not as smooth. Hooking them … low trajectory. I looked at a mirror and it looks like my swing plane is too low. So I’ll be bring the plane up which hopefully will elevate the irons.
So far …. I am sold. Shot my best round of golf in 4 months.
Awesome!! I struggled with some lower draws when I first attempted to integrate this swing into my game. For me it was all about finding how much S&T I needed in my swing. I ended up incorporating a few elements but not all and it really improved my ball striking! I would assume that for most golfers, this instant improvement is directly related to the steady center concept.
Great to hear. Many think that S&T is “unnatural” for the body and write it off for that reason, but unless you are overdoing the motions, I agree that it eliminates a lot of the movement in the swing.